Seasons (of Change)
Seasons is a podcast about change — the big shifts and the everyday moments that shape who we’re becoming.
Hosted by longtime friends Ndoni Khanyile and Mazuba Haanyama, each episode is a real, honest conversation about navigating life with courage, curiosity, and lots of laughter. Along the way, we talk to remarkable women who have weathered change - and the experts who help us make sense of it all.
Join us as we explore the lessons our seasons bring — in identity, career, love, creativity, friendship, and everything in between.
For anyone who’s ever asked: What now? What’s next?
Seasons (of Change)
Teachable Moments
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In this episode, we talk with Marilyn Zakhour, CEO and founder of Cosmic Centaurs, an organisational development consultancy rethinking how leaders and teams grow through transformation. Marilyn shares how her life has been shaped by change — from the fearless “warrior princess” she imagined as a child, to a leader who has learned the quiet strength of saying no.
We explore how curiosity, not just courage, has guided her choices, why rituals matter when life feels uncertain, and what fuels her inextinguishable vigour. It’s a conversation about leading with heart, staying grounded in transition, and trusting the small practices that keep us connected to ourselves — no matter how much the world around us shifts.
Keep a notebook and pen close by — this one’s full of insights and reflections you’ll want to return to.
I'm Donnie, a storyteller and seeker. Always curious about what makes us who we are. And I'm a zooba, a dreamer and strategist, learning to find meaning in life's in-between moments. From Cape Town to Dubai, we're two friends in conversation.
SPEAKER_02About life, growth, and everything that moves us. Each season we explore a different field. This one's about change, how it stretches us, surprises us, and teaches us to begin again. You're listening to Seasons of Change.
SPEAKER_00Today's guest is Marilyn Zakor, a founder and CEO of Cosmic Centors, an organizational development consultancy that's redefining how leaders think about work and the workplace. Under her leadership, the firm has impacted over 90,000 individuals across 92 countries in just five years, delivering strategic alignment, cultural transformation, and leadership development in organizations of all sizes. Marilyn is on a mission to make work better. I met Marilyn a few years ago, and she has fast become one of my favorite people. Welcome to the show, Marilyn. So, in line with kind of what we were talking about, um today we want to look at the role of transformations, shifts, transitions. You are a wonderful thinker and um like a deep strategist when it comes to thinking about transitions. I think as you've shared with us in your personal life, but also in work. So maybe we kick off with um what have been some of the major transitions you've experienced in your life, Marilyn? You can go as far back as you like that you feel have impacted you significantly and you wanna call on them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um I think that like uh you know, when you ask me this question, uh immediately my brain goes to categorizing them.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03So I think I've had transitions in geography, I've had transitions in roles, uh, and again, that could be at work or within, you know, my social community. I've had transitions of, I want to call them like stakeholders, as in the people who mattered most become a different set of people. Um, and so I think that um transitions have also been a normal part of my life for as far as I can remember. My parents got divorced when I was three. I was shipped over to Canada with my brother at around the same time, towards the end of the Civil War in Lebanon, got sent back to Beirut, moved back to Canada, came back to Beirut all before I was 18. Um, you know, divorced parents again means changing stakeholders. Uh uh and then throughout my life, I've had the joy of actually having many transitions. I've transitioned careers many times, um, going from an architect to a tech person to a real estate person to a performance arts person to a consultant. Uh, I've also had the joy of changing roles in my life many times. Uh, daughter, sister, wife, mother, um, community member. And so I think transitions are just um are just life as far as I'm concerned.
SPEAKER_02So true. And, you know, when I look at your professional career, obviously we see that you have jumped in and not been fearful of reimagining yourself and trying new things. Um, and I think that fear is a major thing that stops so many people from exploring a different side of themselves or stepping into a new role that they may not have, you know, occupied before. So I was curious about what is it about you that allows you to lean into that? Is that sort of innate or something learned? But in hearing you describe your early life, it feels like this was kind of built in you. So, can you talk a little bit about cultivating courage and what that takes and your relationship to your courage?
SPEAKER_03Thank you. Um, I'm gonna start with a story from my childhood, actually, because I think it's at the root of all of this. Uh, I had a tough childhood. I mean, I talk about this like it's nothing, but I had a lot of disruption, uh, had to deal with a lot of family changes, um, high on emotion. Um, and I and I made up a myth about myself when I was really young. And it was a coping myth, you know. And the myth was that I was a warrior princess from another galaxy, and that I had been sent here to train. And that's why everything was so hard, because I was training. So, like by design, I was being put through all of these different ways of like becoming a better version of myself, and that's why life was so hard. Um, and and uh of course now I'm a mom, I'm like, oh my god, like I just want to hug that kid. Um, but also it became kind of a foundational energy in my life, which is to um not worry about um anything but acing the training. So just the kind of the key motivation becomes just get a little bit better. And I think that the way that this transitions into like adult life is a pursuit of curiosity rather than courage, if I could say it that way, and a pursuit of like learning. So I don't see it as, oh my goodness, I'm making a big leap of faith, I'm transitioning, I'm going to the unknown. I see it as like, oh, how amazing. I get to ask questions again. Love that. And I remember a moment um at possibly one of the hardest transitions, which is where I went from, because I I did, I was I studied architecture, I spent the first 10 years of my career in tech, in what I think is a very natural transition to like user experience design, project management. I mean, these are all skill sets that you kind of learn as an architect, anyways. Um, and then I transitioned into this real estate job, but really it was more like marketing and product development. So it kind of felt, I mean, it doesn't look like that to the outside, but to me, it's like, yeah, okay, I know how to do this. But then I went into being the CEO of the Dubai Opera. And that was terrifying. I had no clue how to do that at all. And I remember the day I got the call to say, like, that's what you're gonna do now. Um, I went on Amazon and I bought every single book I could find on the first page of like managing performance, performing arts. And I got all these books and I put them on the dining room table. And the next day I got up and I and I wore whatever artistic outfit I could find. And I went to the opera, and my husband sent me a picture of the books at the dining room table. And he and I remember him commenting something along the lines of like, how wonderful that you get to um learn so much again. And I think that summarizes it. So I think that's what makes you called it courage, I call it curiosity.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I love that story. I love that reframe because um it it does shift you from that place of, oh my gosh, I'm not ready, I don't know enough, which is where so much of the imposter syndrome sits, to that place of being a student, curiosity and learning. Because, like, you know, I'm always saying to my kids, there is always going to be failure and backstepping. When you're learning something, that's built into it. You have to make a mess and try again, and that's part of the learning. So when those setbacks come, they're expected. You know, it's not something that's an indictment of you. That's a very powerful way to sort of shift it in your mind.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thanks. No, I really believe it too. I mean, it's very liberating to know that you're I my husband always yells at me. He's like, stop using this word. It's always very liberating to know that you're incompetent at the job. Because you're like, great, I can only go up from here. I have nothing to prove. Whoever put me in this job, I don't know what they were thinking. But I can like, I'm already incompetent. The only thing I can do is become competent. So let's see how we get there, you know.
SPEAKER_00I'm wondering what like so we learn, we gain competence. I wonder if there's a shortfall though, sometimes when we are transitioning and going into something new, where you can learn so much, but sometimes you kind of have to like pull yourself forward, you know? And it feels to me like that's where the warrior princess comes in, where it's like I can only do so much from a competence level, and and the rest I'm kind of gonna have to fly and see what see what happens. And I'm curious for you, Marilyn, like like where does is that a head space, is that a heart space? Is it something that you're saying to yourself? Is it a prayer? Is it like how do you make up that shortfall as you're imagining a transition going through it?
SPEAKER_03That's a great question. Because actually, what you're saying, you know, competence gives us uh some form of certainty. Uh, and what you're asking is how do you then deal with the fact that that's not gonna happen overnight and may never, like I never became an uh like an opera expert, to be clear. Um, and it's about how do you enable yourself um to be able to make decisions in uncertainty and still move forward. And um, it's funny because for me, most of my career, and only now is it maybe shifting to other spaces, but it was in the headspace. And I and I tried to teach myself universal skills. So, for example, I'm a decision-making geek. As in, I go to decision-making conferences and I read books about making decisions, and I follow academics who write about it, and I teach it now. And that's a skill you that is always useful. And in good decision making, it's about how much data collection is enough, and how do you set a deadline for yourself for when a decision needs to be made, by which time you have to make it, whether you're certain or not. Um, how do you generate alternatives? How do you weigh in options using lots of different frameworks? And so those were the things that gave me reassurance, and they were extremely transferable. So it doesn't matter what expertise is required. And of course, the old cliche surround yourselves with people who know better than you. It's, I mean, in the opera, I had veterans. So I wasn't, I was like, great, I don't know anything, but they do, you know. Um, so I think it was a lot about trying to find, and you know, one of my mentors would say these are just general management skills. As in, there are things, and you see this, like CEOs who shift industries, countries, whatever. They're like, well, I'm cool, I'm still gonna be a general manager, I'm still gonna figure this out. Um, and I do think that having your own list of those universal skills that don't depend on context, and then applying them over and over again has been my way so far. Um, I'm a very brain person, I use words to process the world, so I did a lot of that. I think only this year have I started exploring um, you know, more of like the the embodied part of this or the um the spiritual side, which has never been a thing for me. Uh, but I also will say that I've always listened to my intuition. And I just say intuition is a form of unexpressed intelligence. You don't have the words for it yet, but your your gut, your body, wherever you say your intuition sits, uh knows. Um so I've never um I've never cut off. I always say data-driven intuition beats any other method all the time. And so I think I've also allowed myself to be human with intuition and biases and preferences and emotions, and I take them in too. I never put them on the side.
SPEAKER_02I love what you said there because I think um, you know, I was initially trained as a theater performer, so come from the arts. And that's something I I've started trying to speak to a lot of other artists about, about the fact that, you know, wherever you look in the world, um, our industries are going through a really difficult time and negotiating what does the future look like with AI? How does that change how we, you know, interact with stories and how narratives are built and shared and all of that? Um, but to focus on the fact that we have a very, very key skill set that is so needed in the world today and that our area of expertise is the human animal. You know what I mean? We are experts in human behavior, observation of human beings, all of that, because you have to care deeply and explore with deep curiosity if you're going to inhabit somebody's story. So, to think about in the world we live in where emotional intelligence, relational intelligence, these things are being spoken about more than ever before, how do we think about our training and what we do as a skill, a broad skill set and look at how those skill sets can be applied within other contexts, exactly as you say, because that's not something that we're really encouraged to do.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I actually'm a generalist. I don't think I'm a specialist at anything, although that's probably not true, but broadly I prefer to be a generalist in my own head. And generalists have been like uh told for many, many decades and centuries that it's a bad idea. Like um, generalists don't get paid, they don't make money. We need specialists, we need experts. Um, which is why I always look for data points to disprove that theory.
SPEAKER_02One of the things I've had to reframe in my mind is so we have the overwhelming narrative and idea of the starving artist, right? Which is what frightens so many people away from what they feel like is their heart's calling. And I had to learn to give myself permission, because if this is your passion, you do it no matter what, right? You you you live wherever, you eat however, you just do it because of the love. But I had to, you know, learn to give myself the permission to care about money, to want to make money, to learn to be skillful with money, because I saw what that could do, that when money flows through my hands, I can make things, create things, I can share it with people, right? So I'm curious as to like what you've had to give yourself permission to do or be or say, and how that's shifted anything for you.
SPEAKER_03Thanks. That's such a beautiful question. Um, I think I've had to give myself permission to prune. Uh you know, I always uh, especially now that I own my own business, but I think it could have been true at any time. It's just I'm a bit more, I'm older now. Um we sometimes hang on to things or to people longer than we should. Um and when you become a like an owner, you that equation isn't just about kindness anymore. It's about, well, actually, it is about kindness, but kindness at the third degree, um, which is you need to learn how to cut people out, how to fire, how to I've even fired clients, by the way. Believe it or not. Um, you need to learn how to prune, what to say no to, um, in order to be able to blossom. And I always, you know, compare this to like gardening or taking care of a tree or a plant. If you don't cut out the dead leaves or the parts that just aren't gonna make it, you're actually uh removing life force uh from that being. And that I think that was one of my hardest lessons.
SPEAKER_01Thanks. Why was it hard?
SPEAKER_03Uh because of uh the way one perceives oneself or wants to be seen, right? Like I'm a I, you know, I want to be loved. And that meant that for a very long time I thought loved was kind of being nice to everyone and trying to find what's best for them. I come from a community-oriented society, very self-sacrificial. Um so I thought those were the tools for love for a long time, and I had to learn that sometimes cutting things off is love to yourself, to this company you're building, to the people who are actually working really hard to make it work, and even, for example, to the person leaving, because they weren't doing their best here and they can go be their best somewhere else. Um, and that was a really like long lesson.
SPEAKER_00I'm feeling it in my sides, so relevant for me. Um, this maybe makes me think a little bit about um the work that you've done and Cosmic Centures has done with organizations. Uh, I am a product of that work. Um and I'm interested in how you work with organizations as they're thinking about navigating change and why change is so uh thrashy and hard. You know, what what are some of the things you've learned about how to steward people through change? Um, and yeah, what you've come up against as you do that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um so as you know, Mazuba, at Cosmic Centers, we're what you call an organizational development consultancy. And in simpler terms, it means that leaders come to us when they know where they want to go, but they can also see that their organization is struggling to get there. And we kind of bring in a holistic lens and try to say, all right, let's look at everything and try to help you figure out what is getting in the way, where's the hurdle, and try to fix it. And of course, that means that we're often brought in to enable change. Because actually a new strategy is change, right? Um, AI is change, the pandemic was change. So all these different uh trigger points um that something needs to change and we need to help move it faster. And I think to answer the question of, you know, how do we do it, but also what are some of the like most important things to keep in mind when you do that? Um the first is that change is a process, and not everybody follows this process at the same speed. So when you go and you look at like change management frameworks, they look really neat. Here are the eight steps, right? Or whatever it is. There's a few of these, the cutler's eight steps, the whatever. These are the four phases. Um, but human beings don't stick into these boxes, they don't. So while it's good to know what the kind of the general you know process is, it's also good to know that different people experience it at different speeds. And that actually managing change is never about what's on the slides. You know, I always say consultants or even like HQs, what do they start with? They update the strategy and the org structure. And they're like, great, figure it out. I always joke that the reason they start with these is those are the ones we can put on a slide. Everything else, how we work together, our culture, how we show up, the words we use, the stories we tell, all of the other messy part is the part they're like, your problem. We don't know how to do this, figure it out. And so actually, uh I live in the messy part. And when we do work with organizations, the last thing I change is the org structure. Because what you need first is the muscle of collaborating, of sharing information, of uh holding both the present and the future, uh, of caring for both innovation and profitability, like all of these different things that you have to learn to do well, these how to make good decisions. This is this doesn't depend on the org structure. And you can have a crappy org structure, but if people have the right attitudes and mindsets and ways of working and so on, they'll figure it out. The opposite isn't true. You can have a great org structure on paper and then nothing happens. So I think that's the second lesson is that a lot of the change work happens in the messy part. And then the third one, and you know it's funny, we're we're hosting a conference uh soon on systems thinking. Uh, systems don't reach a point of stability, it's like they're like constantly evolving. And so uh instead of talking about change management, let's talk about change readiness, meaning how do we put this capability into the system? So it's not like every time you want to change something, you need to call a bunch of consultants to come and help you. But rather, what are the mindsets? And you know, we use these three M's, which actually I developed with one of our clients. So shout out to her, Sue. Uh, but it's like the the mindset, the methodology, and the muscle. So in terms of how you talk about things, like this example earlier from like curiosity versus courage, like what do you name things? How do you talk about them? What mindsets should you be um adopting? Then second is methodology. There's always a good framework somewhere, right? There's always a good mental model, something to help you make better decisions. Cool. And then the third is the muscle, which is how do we practice this every day? It's one thing, like if you go to the gym and your trainer says, This is what we're gonna do, that doesn't build your muscle. You build your muscle by going at it every single day. And the second you stop, the muscle atrophies. Um, and so putting that into the process. Of the organization that this becomes a continuous exercise rather than you know a peak in their journey, I think is also the third big realization.
SPEAKER_02I've read in some of the writing you've done about the work you do at Cosmic Centers, about the importance of or the role that rituals can play, right, within an organization. So I wanted you to speak a little bit about you know using rituals to build resilience, how you think about that within an organization, but I think it can be a personal thing as well. So how can individuals and organizations think about rituals and how to use them?
SPEAKER_03My most favorite topic ever. And because I love a good framework, I'm gonna take a step back. And I kind of hinted at these things already because they're a big part of my language. But I'll start with saying that when you're when you're helping an organization, a family, yourself, doesn't matter, um see change as an opportunity and turn it into a moment of exploration and curiosity as opposed to a moment of fear. You actually have to do something that is called adaptive leadership, which is you have to hold the tension between what is and what will be. You can call it a lot of things: business as usual and future strategy, the present and the future. Exploiting our existing value proposition, exploring something new. And in order to hold that tension, you know, we we run workshops with leaders to help them kind of reflect on this. We say that it's the leader's job to do two things create spaces of stability. Give me something that is predictable, something I know is gonna run exactly like this, because humans, as we all know, hate uncertainty. And then build the muscle for change. Like, how do I then start to see change as a competitive advantage and not as a constraint? But staying in the spaces of stability for a moment, um, there are many different ways that we do that. But what we found in researching teams, and of course this applies to the individual as well, um, is that when we put in place rituals, and what are rituals? Rituals are reoccurring events or experiences that happen at a predictable pace and that are also filled with meaning. So, this is the work that we did. I just want to mention her with Dr. Connie Hadley at Boston University. And what we discovered is that teams that have many rituals and sustain them are more likely to be connected to the purpose of the organization, to the meaning of their work, uh, more likely to stay in their jobs, more likely to have high levels of psychological safety. And the list probably goes on. After all this research, I spent three years researching this, all these beautiful results. Um, you know, and rituals can sound like daily stand-ups, monthly retrospectives, social get-togethers, celebrating people's birthday. Like they're not complicated things, right? They're very simple. Um just before our HBR article came out, it was a moment of extreme instability. Um, this was at the end of uh last year, and everything that was happening in Sudan and Lebanon and Gaza. And and I have a huge team, I mean, huge. Half of our team is in Lebanon, all you know, six or seven of us. And um, this was the end of last year, and essentially Beirut was being bombed daily. So, as this is as far as you can get to in terms of uncertainty, is war, sadly. You know, what that's one form of extreme uncertainty. And uh the team were doing a campaign uh which was all about trying to help the leaders around us think about how to create spaces of stability. And they wrote this article, and I wasn't involved in briefing them or in writing it. I actually discovered it on our website later. And I went and read it, and we had essentially asked the team. Um, so I think Tala probably who's leading this, had asked each member of the team to write down one thing that was helping to create stability for them. And when I read it, I teared up. Like I remember messaging the team. I'm like, I am here bawling my eyes out. Because actually, for most of them, it was our rituals that had helped them through that period. Because they didn't know if they were going to get bombed or not, if there would be fuel today. They didn't know a lot of things, but they knew for sure that at nine o'clock every morning we'd be together. Or they knew for sure that once a month we'd get together to think about how we work better as a team, or that we wouldn't forget to celebrate their birthday, or that once a week we'd answer a question to get to know each other better. And it was just, it was so emotional for me because these are things that as a leader, like you never really quite know, right? We did all this research, like, oh, am I annoying them? Is this good enough? Am I doing too much? Am I doing too little? And to see that just having this predictability in their rhythm meant so much that even in the midst of uncertainty, this was their beacon. I was like, I am doubling down, you know. Uh, it meant more than three years of research. And so it's always been a big part of our practice. Also, probably because we come from communitarian um backgrounds, where actually rituals are a big part of how we share values, you know, like in my family, uh Saturday and Sunday lunch was sacred to keep to stay in the language of rituals. If and and what it told me, you know, I wasn't allowed to go see friends for Sunday lunch. It was me and my family. And if I wanted an exception, I had to ask for it like four weeks earlier. Uh, and that told me that family came first, and that was a really strong signal to what mattered. And so I think we we carry these from our spiritual practices or our family practices into work, and they work.
SPEAKER_00There was so much that you said that I wanted to reflect on. Um, and I don't know if I'm going to be coherent, so bear with me. Um, and I'm interested in like what this has meant for you as a leader, right? Because I don't know, like the word is almost too flat, the word leader, to explain what leadership or what it means to not even leadership, because that's like a thing. But when you like have to embody being a leader, it's just a lot, you know, while also being a human. So like this muscle that you're talking about, I think about someone mentioned to me like years ago, this thing like practice makes. The more you practice, the more you make. Yeah, and and building a muscle is hard in the gym, it's hard, everywhere it's hard. So I guess maybe on that part, one, I'm thinking, how do you like soothe yourself when it's hard? Because being a leader is hard. I'm also interested, so that's one part of the question. I'm also interested in like the tension of holding what is and what will be. I don't know, like it is such a gymnastic, like, you know, upside down flip while keeping people in a a row. It's just wild, right? And I'm not even certain where in myself it happens, but you know you have to, you know, you have to be like, I get we're here, I get we've been here, and I really need you to just work with me because we're going somewhere. And so, like, like how does that actually happen? You know, like how? And then maybe just lastly, um, I guess maybe just to say that I have like significantly benefited from the work that you and Cosmic have done around rituals. Like this, the minute we introduced the ritual on the team I was leading, like it it changed our dynamic. When the team was dissolved, the thing people spoke most to me about was the rituals that we had. And and that this was really hard because holding the ritual was hard. In the beginning, for months, there'd be every excuse. I need to go and shower, I need to do this, I need to do everything but be inside of the ritual. And they'd even reflect afterwards, oh, I really didn't want to be here. And this was amazing, but that kept going on. So holding it, because some days you want to be like, okay, don't. You know, I'm doing it for you. So if you don't want to be here, go. You know, I guess that this ritual part maybe leads back to the first part, but like, how do you keep yourself intact when it's hard?
SPEAKER_03That's an important question. Because I think it's a question that everyone who is called to lead in whatever capacity is constantly asking themselves. And they have the days where it's like, you know what? I am done with you and the rituals. I'm gonna shut down cosmic centers. I'm gonna go be a waitress. Um, we all have those moments. I have a multi-layered answer, as you can imagine. I think the first, and and it only really came to me when I became a mom and I invented a new mantra for myself. I call it 82% grace, which is that this is my like uh tolerance for error, 18%. That's pretty big, you know what I mean? Like, I'm allowed, I'm allowed to mess up, I'm allowed to curse, I'm allowed to upset a team member, I'm allowed. And I also know that I know how to come back from it. And so one is to give yourself grace, and the other is to also know that nothing is irreversible in that setup, right? You can always apologize, you can always take responsibility if you really go too far. So one is your human. The second, though, and where I agree with you, and I say this to my team members, and I say this to the leaders that I coach, and I'm like, listen, you're a leader. If you don't want the job, don't take it. But if you do, you have less grace than others. So you do still want to be able to like reduce the volatility and hold your core a bit stronger. And for me, what that means is a couple of things. First, it means I always and I get people to reflect on this is this is an energetic process, it takes energy to like hold the core, you know, like to like keep the rituals and also design the strategy for 2028, and also you know, deal with some stupid client request and whatever. Um, and so the first thing is to name what I call the inextinguishable source of vigor. And vigor is intellectual, emotional, physical, and spiritual energy. So the sum of all of those things. But where do you find a well that doesn't, you know, empty? And for me, and there can be different answers for you, I have three of those at work. One is I really deeply, deeply, deeply believe in the impact of the work that we do. I do. It's like not a sales pitch. So when I say it's okay, it's all worth it, because this is what we're gonna get to with this leader or this team or this organization, level one. If that fails, I really love the people I work with, uh, and I really care for them and their growth, not just their well-being. Sometimes growth is uncomfortable. And so, level two. And if both of these things fail, I have duty. Just happen to be that girl, you know. Like if I say I'm gonna do something, even if I have to like cut my arm off, I'm gonna do it. And so knowing what my sources are and tapping into them when I need to really helps. But also, I don't do any of this alone. I have, like, you know, I always say, who has coaches? Athletes. Like, you want to be in the Olympics? I don't know of a single athlete in the Olympics who doesn't have 12 other humans caring for some aspect of their performance. So I have mentors, I have coaches, more than one, I have friends that I can go and like, you know, vent to when I really need to, although I don't allow myself too much of that. But when I do, I have someone I can go to. Um, and so I have a whole group of people that are also to some degree invested or committed in my in my success. And where when I feel like, because you feel it, you know when you're about to tip over, either from doing too much present and future or from caring too much about people's like tiny little complaints versus the big picture or whatever it is. You know, you're like, ah, I can sense it. So that developing that intuition and knowing how to act early enough, again, with the support of whoever you need to avoid the burnout, to avoid the fall off, to avoid canceling all the rituals, you know, whatever that sounds like. That becomes your job. So if you don't want it, don't take it. You can be an individual contributor forever. And I have friends who have, like, they're like, I don't want to lead anybody else. I am happy here. Cool. But if you do, that's the trade-off. And so you have to develop that muscle. And it's it's not to say I don't have a couple of times a year where I tip over. We all do, and again, that's where the grace comes in. Uh, but I do think I've gotten so much better at just holding my core. Uh, and and because this has happened before to me, and you know, age does come with a bit of wisdom. I'm like, oh, I know exactly what's gonna happen, Marilyn. You are gonna get triggered, you're gonna think nobody loves you, you're gonna think the world is unfair, that they don't see all the amazing things you do for them. This is what's gonna happen. I'm gonna let you feel that way for exactly three minutes, you know, and then we're gonna get back on track. Um, and I do think um, you know, we can go and research positive psychology for a long time, but I do think how you name things and how you frame them matters. So I think the words we use matter, and I'm always trying to just stay optimistic. It's gonna get better. The world is abundant, we're wonderful people, we're gonna do great things one way or another, you know.
SPEAKER_00We've covered most of everything we want to talk about because I think some of the change stuff was was answered.
SPEAKER_03Say that again. I want to ask both of you some questions.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, go for it.
SPEAKER_03Just inspired by all the questions you asked. Of course. Um what is your favorite personal or teen ritual?
SPEAKER_02You're gonna go first?
SPEAKER_01No, over to you, James.
SPEAKER_02Um It's interesting because I actually sticking to the consistency of doing something day-to-day is extremely difficult for me. Extremely difficult for me. Even though when I do it, I see incredible results. As soon as I stop doing it, it's almost like I forget all of that, right? But one thing that has been remarkably consistent ever since I started it, which I thought about when you spoke, is I grew up with the ritual in my home of Sunday lunch was sacred. Um, I have two brothers, I'm the only girl and the youngest. So growing up, I refused to cook. I had no interest in the kitchen because I was like, you're not sticking me in the kitchen. I'm a feminist, I don't care. And only really started having any kind of interest in the kitchen or food when, you know, when Mazub and I lived together at university, when I just had to start feeding myself for survival. But after now having my own family, having two children, I started seeing that there's something other than food that this is about. There's something about the that they can rely on, I can rely on this time where we come together, where nothing else is important, where they get excited about, ooh, we love this that she makes, and what's it gonna be this time? That it just feels like a beautiful, lazy day, and there's this thing to look forward to in the middle of it. And as soon as I started doing it, I enjoyed it so much because cooking became creative and it became like a like a meditation in a way for me. It helped to silence my busy mind. And then I saw how the kids loved it and how they responded to it, and then it just created this grounding force in our family. So that for me has been the one thing that I haven't really pulled back from.
SPEAKER_03I love that, and and it's and again, without even noticing, it's because you have found meaning in it.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, right?
SPEAKER_03That's why we stick to rituals. Like, I can't go to the gym to save my life, but I have 35 other rituals that I will never sacrifice. And it's because this gym thing, I don't see the meaning in it yet. And actually, this year I've been on an active search for like what will be the meaning of me being physically active. I still haven't found it. But I love I love your story, and I relate so much to be.
SPEAKER_00That's so funny. I I mean, I love rituals. I like I think my life is an assortment of rituals of things that I do repeatedly because they give me joy. Um, I was gonna skip the gym one, but I'm happy to go with that one. Um, I'm gonna mention two. So I I uh I'm quite like um discipline oriented, you know. Once I say I'm gonna do a thing, I'm gonna do a thing. And I'm like determined, like determined to be like physically strong and astute, like into my later years. And so I I train frequently. I train at at the lowest level. I train three days a week at the maximum, but six days a week. Um I I f I like the endorphins of like strength training are real for me. Um I think I've always been like physically active, whether it was a walk or something. But when I started training Pilates and Joni actually got me into it, it was like a dreadful time of my life. And she was like, it's fine, just come. I'm gonna buy you like a month session and we're gonna train together. It's gonna be great. And after that, like what it did to my brain, to my body, to my heart, I was like, oh, this is like next level. Um, and so yeah, I I I I train as a ritual. But the other thing I was gonna say is I speak to the people that I love as a I think of my connecting with them as ritual. So if a week has gone by and I haven't spoken to Indoni or like the in my head, it's like you gotta call her, you gotta call up, you gotta call me and be like, what's going on?
SPEAKER_02Why have you not called me? It's after Monday and I haven't caught up on your weekend. She's the best at that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because it it feeds me, you know. Like when I connect with the people that I love, I I am fed.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that's beautiful. I have I have another question. Go ahead. I am sure that when I said inextinguishable source of vigor and shared my own, something came to you about yours.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it did.
SPEAKER_03What grounds you? Yeah, what was yours, Mizuma? What's the definition of vigor again? Vigor is uh physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual energy.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah, I'll do mine. Um so physical, uh like engaged, like um training exercise, physical exercise definitely gives me vigor.
SPEAKER_03Um that's like inextinguishable. You don't have to replenish it, it's always there.
SPEAKER_00Oh where are the places that I go where the energy stream runs all the time?
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00But you said things like purpose, growth, duty.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I don't need to replenish that. It's always there. It's okay. Your sense, okay, okay, okay.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's a little bit different.
SPEAKER_02It is, huh? Funny, because now when you explain it again, the first thing that popped into my mind was um uh curiosity for me, that like my curiosity never wanes. And curiosity about everything at all times, it's almost like it's unquenchable. My husband almost starts getting a bit like, do we need to find out about every little thing before we do it? Um, and because I am someone where my mind is a busy place, being able to fuel myself with questions and answers is just, I love that process. And then yeah, creative, whenever I get to do creative things with creative practice, it's just it breeds more and more and more appetite for more.
SPEAKER_03I definitely also resonate with the curiosity one. What about you, now Mazuba?
SPEAKER_00Now that we've I feel like this is so hard. Um so I would say I think they're hard for me because I value them, but I also struggle with them. Um one is compassion. I think my ability to empathize, but not even empathize, my ability to feel compassion for people is endless and almost to a fault at times. Uh, I do think duty with. Discipline it sounds like it is always available to me. Like my sense of like I must show up in this way is like always, always, always, always, always, you know, always. Um and maybe that's linked to my sense of community. Like I build community everywhere I go, and it's always like fulfilling. Yeah, always. And I can't like I can't live without it. I love those answers.
SPEAKER_02And so true about you as well.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I echo, I mean, knowing what I know about you 100%.
SPEAKER_00Indeed. Um, we have a last question for you. Do you have anything else for us? Okay. Um, what at this stage of your life, what can you not live without?
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna sound like I'm gonna sound really boring now. Sleep. Amen. Sleep, my friend. Can I tell you something? One day I was, you know, because the older you get, the more tired you are, and you're like, oh my god, this thing, my cells, they're not regenerating, whatever, whatever, all this stuff, the longevity speak. And then I went to my husband. I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna tell you something. When I was whatever, 20, and I had had, I drink. I don't know if you guys do, but I do. And I had had like a big hangover. You know what used to happen? I used to sleep till 2 p.m., my friend. That's how I replenished. It wasn't just because I was younger, it's because I slept for 16 damn hours. So I was like, we just need more sleep in our lives. Um, and that's really something that I now prioritize over almost everything else, if I can. I've deleted TikTok and Instagram because they used to like give me an hour and a half of Doom Scrolling, and that would take an hour and a half away from my sleep. Um it's really it's the one thing that makes me balanced, emotionally astute, patient, smart, productive. I can't live without it.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's such a great pink. I think we're at we are, but we had asked if you wanted to leave us with a question that you think that we can sit with as we're navigating our own seasons of change, or if you have a little bit of homework of something that you'd like us to do, or a muscle that you'd like to help us build.
SPEAKER_03Um, I'm going to so I'll start by saying that I have asked a few questions that I think whether it's the two of you or those listening to the podcast, like they're worth pausing and reflecting on. So adding to these, you know, we spoke about the rituals, we spoke about the you guys asked me a great question around the mindset shift around transitions, we spoke about the indistinguishable source of vigor. So I'm gonna leave you in the audience with um a practice that was given to me by another facilitator, uh Daniel Delati. We co-facilitated something together, and it was the last question he asked people. And I was like, I'm gonna start doing this, and it has been really transformational for me. Um, because of course, especially when we're ambitious, and a lot of what we spoke about here today was us as leaders, mostly in the context of work, although not only, and I know both of you are leaders in many contexts. Um, but I remember at the end of the session, he said, okay, okay, we've been talking about you being leaders in your professional roles for the last, you know, whatever, hour. Now I want to invite you to do something else. And I started this practice after he did it, and I really love it. And it's first of all, start by listing all the roles that you play in your life that matter to you. Mizuba gave us a few examples, you as well, right? As a mom, as a community member, etc. Um, and every week, it's a ritual, by the way. Surprise, surprise. Every week, I do this on uh Saturday nights because it's when I'm it's quietest for me. Um, I set one intention for that relationship. Just one really small thing I'm gonna do. Mizuba, you do this without thinking with your friends, like I need to call them, I need to see what's happening. But maybe for some other roles, you don't do it so um instinctively. Uh, and set just one intention. For example, one intention I had set for myself that I was that it was just so beautiful was to involve my mom in my daughter's first day at school. My mom lives in a different country, and I'm super busy. Like sometimes two days go by and I forget to call her, and I'm like, no. That day, you're gonna stop, you're gonna call her, you're gonna give her a 35-minute debrief, you're gonna tell her everything from the color of Gabby's socks to what she ate. Um, and you're gonna make her feel a part of it. And she was so happy because my mom is like a really discreet person, so she worries about a lot of things, but she doesn't ask about them. And I'm just giving this one example, but every week I do this for seven or eight of the roles that I play in my life, and I just no matter what happens at work, and no matter what volatile thing is in the news, I feel proud of myself when the week wraps up and I've completed most of them.
SPEAKER_00Do they all are they all action-oriented? Like, for example, could an intention be like show greater kindness?
SPEAKER_03Yes, absolutely. Then you still have to figure out like the moment to do that. Yeah, and you have to reassess. So on Saturday night, I look at last week's and I'm like, where am I? Did I do them? I also do a Wednesday night check-in just to be like keep me on track, of course. Um, but it's a practice that I have found really grounding and connected and allows me to play a role in my community that is to the level of my intentions because sometimes time passes by and you don't notice. Um, and so yeah, that's my invitation to you and those. Oh, I love that. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, anything I think we can do to bring greater intention to like the the relationships we have is just so so special.
SPEAKER_00Marilyn, you're wonderful as always. I know I'm just like so happy. You know, some of the greatest relationships I have started unbeknownst to me. Like I walked into a thing. That's exactly like I walked into Ndoni, like being rude. In fact, I walked into like you all had being nosy and she was not having it. We all had that session, and I was like, I'm gonna be there. I'm just gonna be there. And then you know, I was introduced to you, and I am forever, forever good.
SPEAKER_02Thanks so much for your time and for everything you've shared.
SPEAKER_03Oh, thank you. This was, I mean, this was like going to the spa for me. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for listening to this episode of seasons. If something in this conversation resonated with you, share it with someone you think might be interested too.
SPEAKER_02And if you enjoyed listening, please rate or review the show. It really helps people find us. Until next time, take care and keep growing through your season.