Rooted in Change

In this episode, we speak with Dr. Paddy Pampallis, founder of The Coaching Centre (TCC), about the ways change shows up in our lives—sometimes as an inflection point, sometimes as disturbance, and often as an invitation to rethink what we believe about ourselves and the world.

Dr. Pampallis shares practical tools for soothing ourselves through uncertainty, reframing success as we age, and cultivating courage in moments that stretch us. Together, we explore what a “good enough” day looks like, how to midwife change for others, and how to ask—gently and honestly—what a good life might mean for each of us.

A reminder that we don’t have to carry change perfectly, and that it’s possible to meet it with more softness, self-trust, and room to breathe.

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I'm Tony, a storyteller and seeker, always curious about what makes us who we are. And I'm a zoomer, a dreamer, a strategist, learning to find meaning in life's in-between moments. From Cape Town to Dubai, we're two friends in a conversation about life, growth, and everything that moves us. Each season we explore a different theme. This one's about change, how it stretches us, surprises us, and teaches us to begin again. You're listening to Seasons of Change. Dr. Patty Pampalis is the CEO, co-founder, and faculty head of the Coaching Center and the Ubuntu Coaching Foundation. An internationally accredited executive coach, consultant, psychologist, supervisor, and global faculty member, Paddy has spent her life in the field of human relationships, working in diverse contexts, organizations, and systems. She considers herself to be a consciousness activist with a belief in the highest potential of humans to connect to each other and their environment supported by human GPS. Passionate and enlivened by the process of people becoming unstuck and accessing their many intelligences, Patty sees her work as contributing to culture change and living into a wiser way. I'm so grateful Patty could join us as we wrap up the season and reflect on where we are, the conversations we've had, and dig a little deeper into why change can feel so hard at times. Grab your notebooks and enjoy. So we're both sort of in different places, but very much thinking and holding similar questions, trying to practice similar things and support each other in those attempts, in those trying to find. But what's interesting is that since we dropped the first episode and people started listening, so much of what we've heard is just how many people are in the same place, navigating change for themselves, trying to figure out how to hold it, coming from different directions. And it's really brought up this thing that, you know, we always talk, Mazuba and I, about how change is such a constant in life. And Mazuba, please give Patty that beautiful Octavia Butler quote that you introduced me to that I love so much. Yeah, yeah. Octavia Butler wrote these books called Parable of the Talents and Parable of the Sower, if you don't know about them. And um, there's a philosophy called Earthseed, but Earthseed is governed by this saying which is all that you touch, you change. All that you change changes you. The only lasting truth is change. God is change. It's so beautiful. And if change is so intrinsic to this human experience of life, why is it so damn hard for us, Patty? Why does it destable us so much? Why does it throw us? Why does it shake us as deeply as it does? Yeah, it's a great question. And you know, coming to accept that change is life. That we're in life and living this, that it's not abnormal, it's not, there's nothing wrong with the disturbance, because the disturbance is always a response to us growing. It's like life is saying you're alive, you're in this. And I think there's a huge, huge need for us to help children, even, to manage change as though it is a normal process. You know, the change from day to night, the change of going, being awake in the world and going to sleep. How do we navigate that transition from awake to asleep? You know, in that physical sense, I'm not talking about a metaphorical, metaphorical sense yet, or a mystical sense, but actually it's similar. It's not different. We're not different in our material realm or in our metaphysical realm or in our spiritual realm. These are things that we don't do well as societies or as people to talk about our human in and to talk about the way we human well and the way we do ourselves in um in love. And love is a word that I wouldn't have used so much as a younger person because it felt like you know, you had I had to be really strong and pushing into the world to actually manage it. And one of the biggest transitions or changes for me is to look at that beautiful quote of Adam Cahane, you know, love without power is weak and insipid, and power without love. Oh, have I got it wrong? Love without power is abusive. No, no, I was right. Love without power is insipid and um can get really mushy. And power without love can be abusive. And having to work that sense of agency and communion, I think that's the feminine and masculine dance that we have to make of our energies of where do we push into the world and where do we um actually retreat or sit in the community or in the communion with ourselves or with others. And you mentioned both that you are partnering each other in this journey of conversation with each other. How beautiful is that? And when we talk about it, it's like this shouldn't be happening to me. This disturbance of my soul, the disturbance of my heart, or these feelings should not be happening to me because they're uncomfortable, they're not familiar. And I think that the change part of becoming familiar with ourselves and familiar with our emotional world. That's an integrated human being. Is that they're not strange? The wind is blowing here in Cape Town today. I mean, what do I do with it? Do I fight it? Or do I go, you know, what's its purpose? What does it bring? Looking at the so I'm looking at it, so the leaves are dropping, and how beautiful those those colorful leaves as they land on the ground, and how does the ground receive them? Ground doesn't push them away, it just holds the gentle change in seasons of our lives. It's welcoming. A little bit more like that. Yeah. And I feel like, you know, obviously, in the work that you do as a coach yourself and somebody who actually holds space to train coaches as well, that you hold a lot a lot of wisdom about change and how we can approach it. But I'm also curious about your own personal experiences of, you know, what has been your most impactful formative season of change and how did that sort of shape you? Why was it as impactful as it was? There are a lot of pointers. It's been a continuous journey of shock points into my system. And I guess what was important was who was there or how they were handled when I went through them. In the places that I was not understood for the decisions I made or um choices I wanted to, or longings that I had, that shutting down of something that was yearning in me without any kind of consideration or understanding. Whether you agree with it or not, it was more I understand that you're going through a difficult space rather than the judgment that came onto it. So early on in my teens, there was uh uh, you know, important shock points. Um the death of my father at the age of 21, I just turned 21. That was also a shock point because of the relationship of care and of losing that. The next major shock point, it wasn't a shock point, but it was a change, was the birth of my children, which was um absolutely beautiful. The the shift that happened for me there wasn't so much. I mean, there was a bit of depression afterwards, which was difficult to negotiate. And, you know, that feeling of, oh, I love this little being so much, why am I crying and feeling so desperate? That kind of um challenge in those two points of being so in love with your child, but also feeling so absolutely broken. Now that is that is a point that we have to hold. That feeling that we're holding both of these feelings, and I think that's another key thing for going through change, is that it's both. There's an something coming in, there may be something even beautiful, but there's also something that's tearing us apart. And how do you hold both? So I guess you know, one of the big shock points well or change moments was really going in to do my master's in psychology, and it wasn't the external masters, it was the experiences that I had in that program. And a further two years in the transpersonal work, it was that I discovered a part of me that had not been allowed to be, and that had to emerge, and that was in my late 30s. So, of course, it hits bang in with the 30, late, 30, 40 big crisis points of who am I, where am I going, what am I going to do, and who am I going to do it with. And you know, when people enter our 15-month course, I say, please take your partners along with you or the people close to you, because you will change. And it wasn't so much of a change, but it was a reawakening of parts of myself that I had pushed away. So I guess the changes are more constant. And what is, you know, running a business for 23 years, we work with leaders across the world, we work with organizations across the world, we work in different um in the higher education in health, in corporate, in tech. Seeing that in the marine of the constant change that people are going through and really helping them to settle into managing it, to not being so scared of it. Um, so there are a whole lot of underlying feelings and underlying belief systems that are associated with change. And again, the support, if we don't have the support and the understanding and care in those moments of change, the ones I didn't have that were harder, where I actually had to make decisions to go alone. Those were terribly frightening and isolating. Those where I went with others were easier. But the change I have accepted now, and I wish I could have done it earlier on, is this change cycle is constantly there, and you know, the depressions, the anger, the loneliness, the questioning, the I can't do this anymore. And then, of course, you can. And you get up and you go and you do it. It's like mothers. Your child calls, every hair on your body stands out because it's the 20th call in the night and you haven't had a moment's sleep. But you get up. So I I guess the questions are what is our life force? What is calling us? What is the you know, I think there's a crucible of change, and in that crucible of change, there's there's such important learning, such important um navigational opportunities. So our focus, I guess I'm saying to both of you, it's our attitude to change is something that I've had to work with. My attitude to change, how I see it. And yeah, loss, losses of people, loss of a mother, loss of a father, loss of a partner, uh, almost loss of a business when things weren't going well, you know. What is my identity? Who am I in this moment? And who am I without that? Big questions for us. Yeah. So how are you experiencing it? What's landing for both of you? Just the word disturbance, I thought is really interesting. And I I read it somewhere around change, and I just thought, like, if we think about attitudes to change, like disturbance I have not thought of in a positive way, right? Like we should not disturb, uh, we should avoid disturbance. But what would happen if I welcomed disturbance, which is like totally not what I'm doing right now, but that's really interesting. And humaning well, like, please, I only want to human well. And I am on a deep, deep quest on how to figure out how to human well. Um, I wanted to pick up on, as you were talking, Patty, I was thinking about where you said like holding space for change um and even holding feeling. I thought, like, I know for me, personally, change is difficult or challenging because it has historically not been always safe, right? That with with changes, with disturbances has not always come things that feel like integrated, perhaps. And especially as a kid, you know, I think a lot of the times I'll speak for myself, I didn't know what the change meant. I didn't know it was coming, and so that unknowing, not knowing, um, didn't always set up change to be a safe thing. Yeah, and so when I think of it now, maybe coming to your question around like how am I managed managing it, I think I like ambraced, right? Like I'm I'm braced for change. And even when I hear like change is a constant, like there's just a little like thing that goes off in my brain, like, oh why? And I get it, like there's seasons and it's good, and but I have not really been able to shake the thing that says, does it have to be a constant? Can't it be like an outlier? Which I know it makes no sense because I'm pushing against what is like natural and like normal and blah blah blah. But I think it's because it perhaps requires me to steady myself in a way that's not like a graceful stance. Like, how do I hold it in ways that make me feel full and ready and capable? And I fancy myself a capable human, but change, I'm just like, I mean, I am an obsessive planner so that I can not be disturbed by change, right? So I need to have five different things as options so that if change comes in, I have anticipated it. And again, this is like my childhood. There was lots of change, it was very disruptive, it was very hard for me, and so I really struggle with accepting change. Yeah, yeah. I I think you've mentioned some wonderful things, you know. If we're not prepared for it, I mean, uh obviously being a child, we're often not considered, it's not considered significant that we're told what's going on. And often in the the the hope of protecting our children. But the work of parents is to, if there is a change coming up, even in a schedule of a day's change, how do you prepare your child for that change right there? Something's going to shift today. How do you feel about that? You know, it's nothing, it's it I wouldn't even say it's nothing to be scared of. I wouldn't, I would say, how are you going to be able to manage that, you know, I don't know. Um Granny is going to come and babysit you during this time, and it won't be me putting you to bed. What does that feel like for you? What is what is the happiness part of that? What might be your um not so happy place about that? What do what do you want to do with it? How can I give you a t-shirt of mine to hold while I'm away? So it's how we manage those transitional moments. And you know, the the psychology of it talks to transitional objects. So when we move between the parent, um will give a child, if they're in tune, they often give the child something to hold as a memory of mom. So that in the space where mom is not there, you've got something that smells like her, feels like her, you can recognize. So you take that object with you, and it doesn't feel so heartbreaking, so enormous that that break of connection has happened. Because change is about breaks in connection. Breaks in connection with ourselves, breaks in connection with our scheduling, or our system, or our family, or um any part of us. And if we can, as parents, support our children with we're not going home this way, we're going home a new way. What are you going to notice on the new way? See what's there for you to explore. Um, so it's how we manage that and how we were managed early on, or were we told just get on with it, or something's happening and you just arrived and you had a make do and sit on your own and go, okay, this doesn't make sense, but I'm here. So, you know, from a young age, we're not given those soothing, and I'm not talking about an ice cream, I'm talking about a soothing um conversation that says something is shifting, something is changing, and it's just part of part of us. Nothing terrible is gonna happen. We're going to learn something new, we're going to experience something new. And of course, when the body's tired or there's, you know, we're in a hurry as parents, um, that's kind of hard to do to still ourselves. I just want to say one more thing, as you said, you know, how do I ground myself? And Doni, you all know this part of changing our body position is a beautiful way to override the overthink and to simply go, what would my body feel like if it was okay with what's happening? What body stance would I take? Could I be upright? Could I feel like a tree? Could I feel like a mountain? Could I feel like a river? What image comes to me that if I were that in this moment, it could help me navigate whatever it is that's happening? And to shift your body stance from you know closed over or tight or hardly breathing into something that is um more flowing or stronger or whatever it is um that needs to help you. So if you can't, if you don't have someone to help you, it's can you use your imagination to there's so much that is percolating in my mind, just reflecting from what you offered before, Paddy, and also just what you brought in now. But I was just thinking about how this experiencing of parenting little humans is so challenging and confronting in so many ways. But the beauty of the experience in a lot of ways as well is like what you're talking about, Mazuba, of how so many things that we had no control over when we were kids, that we're able to kind of find a way to come back to those things in a different way, as how do we hold that space for our kids? How do we hold the space we wish we had had for ourselves? How can we approach things in a way we wish they'd been approached with us and to create some new pattern, some new dynamic, some new thing that is now available to all of us, our kids, our families. And it's just it's something I appreciate so much about the experience of mothering. Um, but just to go back a little bit in when you were sharing, Patty, about some of your um shock points and disturbances that have come at different points. There's so much commonality that I feel because motherhood all, I mean, we've talked about this so much, Mazuba, over the years, about how motherhood really did, it was it did feel like the first major disturbance when it came for me and kick-started a train of like deep thinking and exploration that I'm still kind of on. The thing that brought me to the coaching program, Paddy, started with that difficulty holding the beauty of this new experience with how, with the grieving I was also doing grieving of identity and grieving of what had been. And also just you touched on bringing people with you when you go on these changes. And it's everything, actually. In the in the coaching program, you know, we're encouraged to create a metaphor for our current way of being in the world. And then we're encouraged to create one for this future, this future imagined way of being in the world that we're wanting to actively move towards. So I created a metaphor for both. And these metaphors, like because you use them quite a lot, you write around them, you think around them. So they were quite like deeply entrenched and embedded. And because I've I was speaking to you throughout the program as I was learning and questioning and being challenged, I was speaking to my partner David about because so much stuff that had just not been seen or faced or dealt with in our in our partnership, in our marriage, came up in the coaching program. But because I had been speaking to him from the beginning around, he knew these metaphors, he knew what they meant, he knew what they activated in my childhood. When I would just use the phrase, I feel like I'm pushing a rock, a boulder up the hill. He knows exactly what that phrase means. He knows what it's pulling on, he knows where I am in my mind and in my heart. And if I say, okay, I feel like I'm pushing the boulder up the hill. So I need to find, okay, if I'm gonna flow downstream, what feels more flowing downstream, rather? Because he knows flowing downstream is my future. So all of a sudden we have this shared language, this shared shorthand. And when we're in, and we still do it, like when we have moments that are tough, um, or I'm being triggered or challenged, and perhaps he doesn't know where I'm coming from. And he just sees the shortness or me being in a bad mood and he doesn't know what's underneath it. As a shorthand, I can be like, I'm really sorry, I know I'm I'm I'm speaking to you harshly, but like it's not about you. I'm in that place, I'm pushing the bolt up the hill. Or I've just been the drill sergeant because my inner voice, I've named the drill sergeant. The drill sergeant was the one talking to me now. So I know that that voice, that punitive voice, when it comes out, that's my drill sergeant. And having those shared, you know, visual markers, the language, the it's helped so much in just feeling understood, feeling seen, and feeling like partnered and walked with. Yeah. It's been huge. Yeah. I um agree. And you know, we use coaching as as the methodology because actually it is about those conversations, those conversations that take place inside of us, between us, into from our cultural background, from our environment. We're in multiple conversations all the time. We're in these inner conversations and outer conversations. And if we can have these conversations both inside and outside of us, in a way that is more skillful. What I love about the work and then the kind of theoretical or philosophical approach that we bring to it is the connection in with our own African philosophy, which is about really being grounded in the soil, being grounded on the earth through people. And to be you, we need to know how we go through people, and then to bring in a Western frame which is viable for all human beings. It's it's not only a Western um, when I say truth, it's not a it's it's a truth. Any of the truths that we speak about are partial truths to a whole truth. So as a truth or as a construct of experiencing, when we're in our early from a developmental point of view, when we're with our babies, there isn't much kind of separation. Our babies and our little ones are immersed in their parents, especially the mom or the major caretaker. There is a necessary kind of fused space. So when I'm with this other human being, I feel safe because I have this other human being to mediate the space for me. When that human being is not there, I have to mediate my own spaces on my own. And that separation is natural. That's nothing to, you know, it's not an abnormal space or something we need to be frightened of, but it's the way we midwife those moments for our children, because I don't think they were done for us. I think we're much more conscious as parents than our own parents were, and hopefully this will continue to be the trend. And when your child becomes independent, there is an internalized object. Or in certain cases, there isn't. There isn't an internalized pacifier, there isn't an internalized meaning maker, and we have to spend a lot of time trying to find that in our adult lives. However, the work and the beauty of it is that we have a life to work with change in different ways and express what is going on. I think the point I wanted to make in your story, Andoni, is that when something is disturbed in me and the other feels it, our child memory is that it must be about us because at that early stage we felt no separation. So if mommy is disturbed, it must be about me, the child. And we carry that into our partnerships and to detangle that, untangle that space to say, actually, I'm having a human experience. And sometimes I do human well, and sometimes I don't. And I'm learning, I think that's what we're here to do is actually learn how to be fully human. Yeah. And you spoke about, you know, developmentally as well. And I was thinking about the period in the late 30s, early 40s, where that's a huge transition that happens there. And, you know, we're in our early 40s now as well. We've been speaking to um, you know, some women that we are in community with as well, and so many of them from the late 30s through the 40s. We've got some people who are about to, you know, enter 50s as well in the community, um, who are going through so many similar things, physical, mental, emotional. How do we understand what that transition is that happens with us as women in our late 30s and into our 40s? And how can we better midwife this process, as you said? I, you know, I've always called myself a consciousness um activist. So how do we how do we find the ways and the tools? And that is really, I suppose, what what is the gift of you know what the work we do with with our students, the work we do with our communities, the work we do in in organizations. Because these challenges at the 30s to 40s, you've had massive, as you said, massive changes. You're you're in career moves, you're in um early childhood, which is you've got to be hugely available to your children in their early stages. Then you're supposed to be available in your career, and you're supposed to be available to a partner. And we're having to build these inner capacities and strengths, and um that often feels completely overwhelming because it's it's where I think frameworks help. It's if I know where I am on a framework, I can understand it, and then once I understand it, I can actually go, all right, this is not crazy. I'm actually in a fairly good place, but it's massive. What do I need for myself? How can I find somewhere to talk it through? How do I stabilize myself? Where in the moments, but it is this that that 40 midpoint around about there is a massive stage. It's one of the critical midlife stages. Another is as we move from kind of a conventional way of looking at the world to going, actually, there's much more than striving for something. There's a bigger picture here. But in the 30s, 40s, we still try to be to make our path in this world for good reasons. To share our gifts, to make a living, to bring up a family. It's massive. But it's not abnormal. So one of the things that you're doing is having this this podcast which says you're not alone. There are two of you, tangible human beings, who are experiencing it, you're in the midst of it. I was there at that stage. I kind of woke up to something more, I got divorced, I moved to cities, I started another business, I you know, these are massive changes. And the good thing is actually you've got the energy. It doesn't feel like it. Yeah, it's true. But you do have an energy, and that's what the striving energy is about. It gives us energy. In one of our previous episodes, you know, I described to Mazuba this this phenomenon that I have, and that I'm trying to give myself permission slips around, and that permission slip would be to not know, allow myself to not know or to not have the answer. Because, on one hand, you know, as an actor, as a creative person, you live in the space of not knowing. You know, you have to start off with not knowing so you can find something, create something. And in in many areas of my life, like that is completely, I flow with that, and I don't mind not knowing at all. But we we talked about how when it comes to other spaces, not knowing feels extremely scary. It feels dangerous, it feels like imminent failure, like the and and failure feels scary and dangerous, I guess is the thing. So not knowing feels like if I don't know, I can't do, I can't um meet the standard I'm supposed to meet, and then I'm gonna fail. And failure feels like the be all and end all. Um, so I'm trying to exercise that muscle and give myself permission to explore that space of just not knowing. And if it's what it what if it's okay to not know? What if it's okay to not know what the final picture looks like, but then just focus on what is the next best step from here? Um that's kind of where I'm at with it now. Um, but perhaps also because you you know me. Um, you know me on a deeper level. If there's anything else you'd like to offer around this thinking and working I'm doing around giving myself grace and permission to not know, and trying to make failure or feel less dangerous because life is full of failures. And some of the failures I've had have led me to some of the most beautiful things. So I want to I want to see how I can ease that fear a little bit for myself, how I can soothe that. So I think you're again pointing to what is an identity crisis at this stage. You know, who am I and what have I been identified with in my success up to now? And what is success? And I've I've put, if you saw me, I'd have inverted commas around the story of success. Because success has many things, and it's a very beautiful um interrogation for anybody to simply write for themselves or journal for themselves. What does success mean for me? What are the different phases of success? What am I assuming success looks like? And is success that I actually attended to my life today. And I had feelings, and I had um uncertainties, and I managed to get through it. And again, I fed the child, I did my job, I cleaned the house, I wrote part of the book I was writing, I prepared for my um whatever it was. I did parts of this, and maybe at the moment I have to hold these many parts, but if I'm consistent, if I give myself permission to simply be consistent. And there was something else to this beautiful thing of giving yourself permission for unknowing. I don't have to know the way, because that's another thing of aloneness, I think. And I've been there, I've had to work on my own journey of if I'm sitting here on my own, am I alone? No. And that's a connection to nature, it's a connection to my dog who might be around, it's a connection to you lovely people on a podcast. We're connecting, you're not alone, and of course, we need the physical touch, so there's something about soothing oneself, and I'm going back to that early criteria of the child having a fluffy to soothe themselves. Where is our fluffy? Metaphorically, what is the soothing? Can we just rub our hand? Can we put our hands on our heart? Can we take the breath in the uncertainty and say it's okay? It's okay. And I am a big believer of breathing in in those moments when we start feeling our anxiety move and our heart wants to jump out. That containment is also the containment of others, but of ourselves. We have to learn to contain ourselves in that space. Um, so what does fear mean? And do free writing about fear. Fear is and put on the clock for 15 minutes and just write. And it'll be incr interesting to see what your inner voice says, which is actually stronger and more capable than you believe it to be. It's the story of success and what it looks like that we've got um put in capitals in our head, and if it doesn't measure to that, then it's not okay. But that's not really true. Because it's not that we're not okay, it's actually we're living in this moment with the conditions in our lives and the challenges we're facing to something that is not the success story for now. It may be the success story for tomorrow. I love that. That is so helpful, Paddy. Um, and I'm I'm definitely going to take what you've said around writing and exploring deeper around the idea of success and then doing some free writing around fear as well. Um, and I think especially the success one, there might be some, because I don't, I haven't explored that, I think, as deeply as I have some of the fears I hold. And I think I'd be surprised at what lies there because uh I I've recognized that a lot of times it's not even just the fear of not succeeding, sometimes it's the fear of succeeding to the extent, and then who do I have to be to hold this thing that I said that I wanted to be? So it does feel like there's layers that are like sitting underneath that idea of success that are just waiting to have me shake them up a little bit. Um, thank you. And success may be getting out a bit in the morning. Don't underestimate that when one's going through a challenging time. Yeah, yeah. I'm la I'm laughing, I guess, because um I'll share this thought and then I had a question. Um I think this idea of like success for the time, for the times, is quite interesting. Um you know, I think our parents did the best they could with what they had, like most of us. And I think a lot of the folks in our generation, particularly folks living in the global south, black folks, people of color, were raised by, you know, individuals that were like, you have to strive, right? You just have to work hard. I was listening to a podcast about like money, you know, and the thing all of us save, save, work hard, go to school, save money, like make good choices. And success, whether it was financial, you know, even if we weren't pushed to be like the greatest, you know, millionaires out there, there's I think something about like you have to hold yourself to a high standard, you have to have a goal and you have to chase it, and you know, you have to be like successful in these ways. And I think for the context that they were living in, that probably made a lot of sense. You know, fast forward 40 years, it's uh shifting and the things that matter, of course, taking care of myself, taking care of my kids matters so much. But that care has like gained dimensions, right? That I want to have financial success, but I also want like emotional well-being, you know. If I raised kids that only understood that they had to strive to make money, this would be a gross um like diminishing of what I think success is. So for sure it has to change. I certainly have not kept up with that for myself because like I I like hear my parents' voice, and I also understand that my like success for me has grown, but I don't always integrate those things, right? So 100% getting out of bed. Is not anything I look at as successful, right? And I'm doing a hundred things a day, you know, all the time. In fact, yesterday I was like, I'm going to write my admin list from like now until December, and I'm going to get everything done. And then I don't want to hear about anything for like two weeks. And then I got an email that I had to address, obviously, because this is life. And every time I do this, it's ridiculous because this is change again. But I recognize that particularly, I guess, around like there's a lot of conversation on the internet about like dysregulation, nervous system. You know, I'm fully understanding, maybe not fully, but like I'm certainly understanding more that my nervous system is shot at many times, and that like finding groundedness and like safety within myself is like lifelong work. And that feels really successful. Anytime I'm even able to articulate that I had an emotion that was not a positive one, that I can even say to myself, like, I feel sad, I'm angry. That feels like hugely successful, but it's certainly not what I quantify or qualify as success. So that was just certainly percolating. Um and maybe attached to that, the question I had was yeah, so very I'm very present to like the age and time I'm at now. But I also having had some time like under my belt as an adult, kind of, I recognize that this is a moment, you know, and it's gonna look really different in 10 years' time. And I'm so interested in the views of folks who have walked this moment. Like what like what would you give yourself, you know, in your early 40s? What would you have gifted yourself looking back um in terms of the soothing, maybe? Like what what kind of soothing, what kind of words, what kind of bomb would you have applied if you could have at that period of your life, knowing what you know now? If that makes sense. Yeah, it's a great question. I guess, you know, we we look at success or we look at any of our stories in a single dimension. We kind of get fixated on on what it is and have a narrow definition of it. And then anything that is outside of that definition doesn't feel like success. Um so that's that's an interesting point for me, is that there isn't a single definition of success. There is your your outward success, there's your inner success, there's your relational success, there's your environmental success, there's your there's so many success points that if we if we just narrow it down to say becoming wealthy, which I would replace with having a good life, because I certainly don't, I don't know if I'm jinxing myself, want to be a multimillionaire. I do not want to live those values, I do not want to be that extractive kind of person, but I do want a good life. What does a good life mean? What is the life that I can really feel comfortable with and may that good life be for everybody? In the in the 40s, it was in this time of giving, you know, you've said the word permission, and permission of understanding that at that stage in our 40s where we are have all this energy to move out into the world, we also, as fathers and mothers, we have our families, or we have something else uh around us that may also be drawing our attention. So if it is a family, if it is a child, and I'm thinking as I speak, there are those who don't have, and they're creating families but but uh of a diet without children, but there's still relationships to deal with, unless, and even if you live alone, you've got to manage your aloneness. So in those spaces where we're pushing, and it's natural at that stage, it's like a great thrust where we achieve things in the world. Can we trust? Can we give ourselves permission to say that that is important and it's not the only thing? It is a space where we have this challenge of pushing forward, but also of being very present to a life of our cat or the dog or our partner, and certainly to a child or children. And watching, you know, many moms and dads navigating the space of their climb in the world, and I'm using the word climb because that's still the system we're working in, and the feeling torn by oh, I left a child home sick. Someone else else is doing that caretaking. These are massive things to navigate. So the the the wave through it, I wish somebody had said to me, you don't have to do it all perfectly. You don't, you have to choose your moments in which you're going to pay attention to that. And there are moments where you can with confidence say no to the other thing and say, I have to be with, for instance, my sick child or my sick self sometimes, rather than a variety. Because tomorrow will be another day where you recalibrate into a different way of being. But you you you also said that you were very present to this time of your life. Can we be even more present? And I know that's a phrase bandied about with all sorts of things, but that is am I am I awake to this tension in me, to this challenge in me, to this these pulls in me without judging it as good or bad? Just as oh yeah, there I am again. This one's not such a an easy day. No, I'm just it's not such an easy day, but I'm going to give it attention. I'm going to do what I can do for now, and that's got to be good enough. And there is the concept of the good enough leader. I mean I'm working with our, you know, many of leaderships. I'm on boards, I'm developing various things. These are the constant things. What is good enough for now? What can you deliver now? It may be less tomorrow, it may be better tomorrow. Don't lose the drive, don't lose the the call to excellence. But excellence is sometimes being awake to the fact that actually this is a non-easy day. That's being an excellent human being. Yeah. I love that idea of good enough. It just already feels like an exhale, doesn't it? But it can be good enough. But good enough is great. It's good enough for this moment, it's good enough for today. There is another day, there will be more moments, and we can do more and go further. But right now, it's good enough. That feels like relief. Um, as we get towards the end of our time together, Patty, I just want to bring some different thoughts together. You spoke about holding two, being able to build the capacity to hold two things at once. The tension of transition brings about two things at once. It's both and. But what are some of the things that we can pull on to begin to create, to cultivate deeper courage, to build stronger backs while keeping our front soft and open? You've talked about breath, the power of that. You've talked about imagination. But what can that toolkit look like? And what are some ideas that people can take away to look into? Well, if one can pay attention to one's to-do list, admin list, I think we have to make ourselves the admin list first. So how am I? Who am I being in this moment? You know, that soft front, the heart. If I were love, what would love look like in this moment? And this is not a it it's it's it's an ongoing piece of work. We here for our whole lives to practice this, but the intentional practice of getting in there and going, ah, what will today hold for me? Can I meet it? Today I don't feel like meeting it. That's okay. I know I'm going to do some things, but I'm I'm feeling the trepidation. It's honoring the feeling without catastrophizing the feeling. And it's going, that's interesting. Let me explore that. So here's an opportunity to go in. If I explored that feeling and just went in, where am I feeling it? In the bones of my body or in the flesh? How far does it go? Is it touching my toes or is it just around my heart? Okay. If I just breathe into my heart and open that, what immediately? Because one does immediately feel something different. You mentioned that breath. So it's can I make myself a priority and not in an egocentric way, but a priority for responding to the world, not fighting it all the time or fighting myself. It's can I carry the not knowing that you mentioned with me into the day? My child's crying, I'm struggling to soothe. What do I do? I've got this deadline that has to be met. I'm panicking. I'm spending so much time walking around my chair and not settling into doing the outline because I'm panicking, because I've lost connection with my core. So that's where the backbone comes in. Breathe in, straighten my backbone, and tell myself it's going to be okay. I'm not going to die. Even though it feels like it. There's the front Saint Francis prayer or the prayer of I think um AA uses it, you know, God, give me that courage to accept the things that I cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference between what I can change and can't change. That prayer has held me through so many things. And it's forgiveness of yourself, of letting that perfect self go. Perfection is being perfectly messy. Great place to end. Perfection is being perfectly messy, yes. I love that. Patty, um, you have given us questions. You have given us homework, you've given us ideas to possibly write and explore around. Um, but as we as we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to leave us with to think about as we're walking this road? Or anyone who may be listening? I feel it it feels like how lovely to sit and be with two beautiful people and have a conversation. And that gives me the time or the moment in the day to say, actually, what's really important? Who am I connecting with? What is the work that I can do inside of me and this world inside of me? And the there's the world outside, you know, the cities. How do we make our cities live? How do we make our organizations work? How do we support our families? How do we create planetary ecosystem changes? These are all big things. We don't have to do the big things, we have to do the small things, the one step at a time thing. So keep keep on doing this, the two of you. Keep having the conversations. Somebody's going to listen to this, and somebody's life is going to be changed. That's wild. Um, thank you. I realized in Germany that you were giving me time to give any final thoughts and that it was like not even more questions, but maybe a final a final thought for me. Um, thank you for that really important reminder, Patty. Um, and maybe um thank you for providing like a moment of quiet. I think for us like to stop, pause, ask ourselves some important questions, and just also maybe like um like regain agency. I think a lot of trying to navigate change sometimes can feel like you're on a conveyor belt that's just moving, right? Like it's just moving, and you just have to get on with it. And I think something that you've certainly reminded me is like I put myself on the belt and I can take myself off the belt and I can pause it, and it can go up my tempo. And actually, because it is my life, I kind of have to center myself in like important ways. Um, and I think that can be easily forgotten in the flow of trying to manage like a household and just even oneself. So I am certainly leaving with like a real like um like an air bubble of quiet that I can give myself and others. Um, and that feels really important. So thank you. And in that spirit, Mazova, that bubble of quiet, um, I want to leave us with this thought. And it's this quote from Victor Frankel that you introduced me to, Patty, in our training. And it's something that impacted me deeply in the program, in that I took the work of finding and creating those pauses really seriously while I was in that program. But I also feel like this season of episodes, and particularly this episode with you, Patty, feels like that moment of pause within the larger things that we are holding, Mazuba. So I'm so grateful for that. But the the Viktor Frankel quote um says between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom. So, Patty, thank you for giving us tools and knowledge to help expand how we are able to respond. Um, and just thank you for you. Um, I would encourage anyone that has really enjoyed listening to Patty who wants to learn more about her and some of the ideas and the work she's talking about, to um look up the coaching center that Patty founded. Um Patty, are you on social media? Are you online? Yeah, we're on social media, and you know, it's integral Africa and the coaching center. And the motivation behind an integral Africa is that we become integral human beings, integrated human beings. Amazing work. Thanks so much, Patty. All right, thank you so much. Thanks for listening to this episode of Seasons. If something in this conversation resonated with you, share it with someone you think might be interested too. And if you enjoyed listening, please rate or review the show. It really helps people find us. Until next time, take care and keep growing through your season.